We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. Opinions all ! I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. For a tommygun, I'd probably go with 1d8 base damage, +1 magical weapon bonus to represent penetration and damage, and the ability to make a cone area attack (save or take damage). 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. Be Safe Out There. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. Cool story for real. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. 9mm capacity! For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. If knock down power is desired forget the 45 and get a 44 mag or get a 375 they kill most anything one shot. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. I prefer 45 revolvers. ), provide a detailed description of the incident and review the critical importance of choosing the appropriate duty-carry handgun rounds for police officers. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. The results may surprise many as it did myself. I was in the military and was law enforcement. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. Missing it not an option. The pistol is not their primary weapon. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. The ambulance took him away. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. High-velocity A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? And It will get the job done quite handily. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. Let the operators in theater chose what they want. The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea That meant that the tip didnt just bore straight through him, but rather that the whole length of the projectile rotated over and over through Scalises body, ripping a wider hole and distributing a bigger shock wave throughout his bones and tissue. By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) The bullet lands in the same place because the entire situation and milieu is what determines it. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . So its definitely capable. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. But in summer I have just discovered the Sig Sauer P938, a 9mm 7+1 with extended magazine. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. One round goes off, and you get a failure to feed. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. Come On People!! Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. Nobody I know whos been in the service liked the M9. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. First off, its important to understand what the term refers to. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. Among other things, this Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. Yes, I know it was a +P round, but then, there arent any grizzly bears in my neck of the woods. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. Practice while on the move. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. The story makes that even sound too few. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. Rookie year. I sure do love 45acp though. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 450 ft/s will make a hole in, but not penetrate 4" plate glass. Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. If you havent got JHP or ballistic tip bullets in the 9mm gun your in trouble. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. Taurus 45 I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. So In a effort to accommodate all soldiers they switched to a milder recoiling 9mm round. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. Not aim shoot. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! A tool yes but not a valid substitute. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. It makes a bigger hole. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. Cheap crap. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. I never miss. He eventually was taken off life support 4 days later, open casket funeral. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. The rifle round, which is longer than a pistol projectile, likely also began tumbling after its point collided with his hip. 1SGT. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. They are a secondary source at best. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. Either will get the job done for protection. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. Maybe Obamas army should be issued paint ball guns so there is a non-lethal component too. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. and love a SA trigger. I preferred carrying them before things went bad for me. Im 73 yoa. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. The reason is recoil. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. True. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. I find that there is a difference when using 9mm vs .45acp. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. This article will define what the question which handgun round has the best stopping power? means, and offer unbiased information that will help the readers to make up their own minds on the subject. Police usually shoot from a distance. Damage: 23. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. Anyway great comments to all. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. So any caliber is better than none. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. F=MA is not applicable. It stood there looking at me. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. This doesnt factor shot placement. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. Not concerned with concealed carry. Knock down power. 2. I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. Practice thats all it takes. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. The .45 knocked him on his ***. The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. Indeed, if 9mm used the same grain of bullet, the ft/lb and velocities are near-identical. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. In the past, one of the standard tests performed to assess bullet and cartridge performance was the penetration of pine boards of various thicknesses. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot.
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